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Saturday 17 August 2013 - 13:48:47




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miniradman says : In case nobody here remembers the charter they've ticked when signing up to the forums (although it was Forgotten in the technical guide), heavy political and religious arguments/discussions (which are non-metal related) are banned from the forums...

Arguments like this cause problems which shouldn't exist (especially on a Metal site).


I personally think it's an interesting debate and it's not making me angry at gayboy. Please don't block the conversation!



Replying to gayboy, the argument you make is all too common with Christian apologists, and it's illogical as well. Here's a quote from the magic carpenter himself: "Think not that I am come to destroy The Law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." (Matthew 5:17) Jesus also says that people need to love him more than they do their own family. They need to have unwavering Blind Faith in him for no real reason other than he seems to know how to do magic. He also constantly makes threats of Hell and Damnation, going so Far as to damn three whole cities to Burn forever (Matthew 11:20-24). He says he comes to Earth wielding a Sword i which to cut Down sinners and cast people into Hell and turn families against each other (Matthew 10:34-37). At one point he criticizes the Pharisees for not murdering their disobedient children (Matthew 15:4-7).

Even if Jesus Ever existed, he was batshit Insane and No One should have listened to him. I won't even get into Moses' Insanity, since he was even worse after bringing the Israelites to Sinai. All that Power went to his Head and he started murdering people left and right (under God's command, of course!).

Also, political events are no way of proving the Existence or the lack of Existence of a diety. I could argue that the countries with the highest quality of life have fewer Christians (all of Scandanavia, for example) and many places with extremely rigid theistic laws have very low qualities of life. Look at the United States. As you enter the Bible Belt, the education levels plummet and the violence levels rise. Explain to me why it is logical to believe in GOD, please!

Tuesday 20 August 2013 - 06:50:27


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InfinityZero says :



Replying to gayboy, the argument you make is all too common with Christian apologists, and it's illogical as well. Here's a quote from the magic carpenter himself: "Think not that I am come to destroy The Law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." (Matthew 5:17)

Yes, Jesus came to fulfil The Law of God. Not the Corruption that the kikes have kept since the apprentices of Moses' 70 elders, the Pharisees. The Law of GOD was given to Moses and Aaron, since then the Pharisees have, in their Corruption and Jewry, taken advantage of God's word. The Messiah was not sent to Earth for no reason, he was sent to set the word of GOD in place once again and begin a new covenant with man.



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Jesus also says that people need to love him more than they do their own family. They need to have unwavering Blind Faith in him for no real reason other than he seems to know how to do magic.

He is GOD, his word is divine.



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He also constantly makes threats of Hell and Damnation, going so Far as to damn three whole cities to Burn forever (Matthew 11:20-24).

This was to show the kikes of the time (the Hebrews, not the Khazars) that they will be damned for denying the word of GOD, as modern kikes do.

 

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He says he comes to Earth wielding a Sword i which to cut Down sinners and cast people into Hell and turn families against each other (Matthew 10:34-37).

That is because God's authority is above all else, The Law of MAN is not comparable


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At one point he criticizes the Pharisees for not murdering their disobedient children (Matthew 15:4-7).

In the same passage it states "Thus you nullify the word of GOD for the sake of your tradition" This statement shows that the Pharisees can not continue to destroy the word of GOD in favour of their own power.



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Even if Jesus Ever existed

There is little doubt of Jesus' Existence among scholars and historians. you're just being an edgy faggot by saying that and you're showing off your historical ignorance.



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he was batshit Insane and No One should have listened to him.

That's ridiculous. Why wouldn't people listen to Jesus even if they (wrongfully) don't believe he was the Messiah



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I won't even get into Moses' Insanity, since he was even worse after bringing the Israelites to Sinai. All that Power went to his Head and he started murdering people left and right (under God's command, of course!).

[Citation needed]



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Also, political events are no way of proving the Existence or the lack of Existence of a diety.

If you're referring to Jesus, then it's not about him being a deity, that is disputed, but there is no doubt a MAN named Jesus existed and was Born in Bethlehem and eventually crucified by the Romans.



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I could argue that the countries with the highest quality of life have fewer Christians (all of Scandanavia, for example)

Norway is 83% Christian, Finland 77% and Sweden 87%.
 

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and many places with extremely rigid theistic laws have very low qualities of life. Look at the United States. As you enter the Bible Belt, the education levels plummet and the violence levels rise.


Statistics? The GDP per capita of Missouri, the lowest in the US, is still higher than most EU nations. You can't pull facts out of your arse.

 

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Explain to me why it is logical to believe in GOD, please!

Because you might not be an angsty 15 year old who's going through a phase.


Tuesday 20 August 2013 - 07:17:16
gayboy, could you be a little more civilized when replying to people's comments? Because at the moment you're showing as much maturity as a 7 year old girl.

ie:

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There is little doubt of Jesus' Existence among scholars and historians. you're just being an edgy faggot by saying that and you're showing off your historical ignorance.


Tuesday 20 August 2013 - 15:25:33
I agree with miniradman. Gayboy, try not to directly Insult me. It completely undermines your argurments, which are poor to begin with. Saying "God is perfect because he's perfect therefore whatever he says is A-Okay" is a weak argument. Every religion has its own GOD who is perfect and unquestionable. What makes yours special? Also, if GOD existed, I wouldn't follow him. He's Evil and bloodthirsty and psychotic and spews trivial rules out left and right. People can't work on the Sabbath, people can't wear mixed fabrics, people can't be gay, people can't think for themselves. This is not a deity I would follow. The Fact that you are not bothered by a crazy MAN in the sky killing millions for almost no reason just because he's labelled a GOD in a bronze-age superstitious body of text is sort of worrying to me.  Calling me an edgy faggot is again besides the point. I might as well say that you are religious because you are in defiance against your Atheist parents. Things like this don't make a difference. What matters is backing up what you say. You say that a lot of historians have proof of Jesus, but you don't provide links to any scholarly articles.  There is a lack of evidence of Jesus' existence:http://jdstone.org/cr/files/part2thelackofhistoricalevidenceforjesus.htmlhttp://www.atheistrev.com/2013/05/problems-with-jesus-lack-of.htmlhttp://www.examiner.com/article/the-jesus-discovery-discredited-for-lack-of-evidence Oh, and here are some articles to fill in the gaps in my information before:http://epiphenom.fieldofscience.com/2009/06/atheist-nations-are-more-peaceful.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Europe_belief_in_god.svghttp://www.infobarrel.com/25_Most_Atheist_Countries_in_the_WorldI want to point out again that I'm not trying to say 'atheists are more peaceful'. I'm trying to point out that there is ample evidence to show that theocracies don't work well compared to Freedom of religion.  Also, please stop using anti-Semitic slang. Once again, saying "Jewry" this and "kike" that totally undermines your arguments. I'm not sure which of the Bible's teachings that you're picking and choosing from, but if you're taking from the 'love thy neighbor' fluff, you're kinda failing. D: 

Tuesday 20 August 2013 - 15:59:58

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InfinityZero says : I agree with miniradman. Gayboy, try not to directly Insult me.

Grow up, you faggot

 
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It completely undermines your argurments, which are poor to begin with. Saying "God is perfect because he's perfect therefore whatever he says is A-Okay" is a weak argument. Every religion has its own GOD who is perfect and unquestionable. What makes yours special?

My GOD conquered theirs.


 
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Also, if GOD existed, I wouldn't follow him. He's Evil and bloodthirsty and psychotic and spews trivial rules out left and right. People can't work on the Sabbath,

Untrue, Jesus revoked the majority of the OT.


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people can't wear mixed fabrics,

See the above point. It seems you've just been watching the Amazing Banana on YouTube or soemthing rather than researching this yourself.

 
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people can't be gay

This is different, though the OT is not applicable this still violates The Law of not wasting one's seed and is similar to masturbation.


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people can't think for themselves.

Pantsu on Head retarded, what a ridiculous generalisation


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This is not a deity I would follow. The Fact that you are not bothered by a crazy MAN in the sky killing millions for almost no reason just because he's labelled a GOD in a bronze-age superstitious body of text is sort of worrying to me.

If you're going to make such shallow and Absurd generalisations without any reference to theology I might aswell not have this discussion.

 
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Calling me an edgy faggot is again besides the point. I might as well say that you are religious because you are in defiance against your Atheist parents.

My parents are Catholic.

 
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Things like this don't make a difference. What matters is backing up what you say. You say that a lot of historians have proof of Jesus, but you don't provide links to any scholarly articles


(1991), v. 1, The Roots of the Problem and the Person, ISBN 0-385-26425-9(1994), v. 2, Mentor, Message, and Miracles, ISBN 0-385-46992-6(2001), v. 3, Companions and Competitors, ISBN 0-385-46993-4(2009), v. 4, Law and Love, ISBN 978-0-300-14096-5
  • Mendenhall, George E. (2001). Ancient Israel's Faith and History: An Introduction to the Bible in Context. ISBN 0-664-22313-3
  • Messori, Vittorio (1977). Jesus hypotheses. St Paul Publications. ISBN 0-85439-154-1
  • New Oxford Annotated Bible with the Apocrypha, New Revised Standard Version. (1991) New York, Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-528356-2
  • Price, Robert M. (2000). Deconstructing Jesus. Amherst, N.Y.: Prometheus Books. ISBN 1-57392-758-9
  • Wells, George A. (1988). The Historical Evidence for Jesus. Prometheus Books. ISBN 0-87975-429-X
  • Wilson, Ian (2000). Jesus: The Evidence (1st ed.). Regnery Publishing

 
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There is a lack of evidence of Jesus' existence:http://jdstone.org/cr/files/part2thelackofhistoricalevidenceforjesus.htmlhttp://www.atheistrev.com/2013/05/problems-with-jesus-lack-of.htmlhttp://www.examiner.com/article/the-jesus-discovery-discredited-for-lack-of-evidence  

Revisionist drivel. The Gospels and other books of the time, include Pauls letters to the Romans and Corinthians as well as early Christian and Roman, and later Arab, documentation. Do you think the early Christians, who witnesses Jesus first hand, would willfuly die at the hands of the Romans for a man who didn't exist?
 

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Oh, and here are some articles to fill in the gaps in my information before:http://epiphenom.fieldofscience.com/2009/06/atheist-nations-are-more-peaceful.html  

That article doesn't even give statistics, it simply claims New Zealand to be an Atheist state. New Zealand is actually over 50% Christian. http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/8375951/Census-taking-stock-of-NZs-changing-society

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 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Europe_belief_in_god.svghttp://www.infobarrel.com/25_Most_Atheist_Countries_in_the_World

Is 30-85% a good range to guess from. The article didn't even use official Census figures.
How about those Atheist states, the Soviet Union? Approximately 5 million died in the Civil War, 8 million Peasants and Kulaks died in the famine following Stalin's collectivisation, millions, unspecified/undetermined died in Stalin's purges. Communist China killed millions in collectivisation, among other factors, as well. Doesn't seem that peaceful for an Atheistic ideology.


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I want to point out again that I'm not trying to say 'atheists are more peaceful'. I'm trying to point out that there is ample evidence to show that theocracies don't work well compared to Freedom of religion.

I'm not saying that, I'm saying Christian morality has always been an undertone of western society, especially in it's most successful time period when 1/3 of the world was British and much more belonged to the other European empires.


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  Also, please stop using anti-Semitic slang. Once again, saying "Jewry" this and "kike" that totally undermines your arguments.

Go watch the documentary, "The Other Israel" to see where I'm coming from. Then watch the Orthodox monk, and former Jew, Brother Nathanael. Both can be found on YouTube.

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I'm not sure which of the Bible's teachings that you're picking and choosing from, but if you're taking from the 'love thy neighbor' fluff, you're kinda failing. D: 

Jews aren't neighbours of Christians, they murdered Christ and have been undermining Christian society for centuries, since the expulsion from Palestine in 136 AD by the Emperor Hadrian. This is all covered in The Other Israel.


gayboy has been warned for this message

Tuesday 20 August 2013 - 22:03:02

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gayboy says : Do you think the early Christians, who witnesses Jesus first Hand, would willfuly Die at the Hands of the Romans for a MAN who didn't exist?


Every religion involves people Dying for people who don't exist. People used to wage huge wars over the Greek/Roman Gods. You say that because your GOD conquered others (involving millions upon millions of murders, as I mentioned before), but what about the thousands of years before Christianity's rise when many other polytheistic religions made up people's beliefs? Christianity is a relatively recent religion--a religion which is beginning to dwindle.

In the US, the number of non-religious people has more than doubled from 14.3 Million in 1990 to 29.4 Million in 2001; their proportion has grown from just Eight percent of the total in 1990 to over fourteen percent in 2001.
http://www.gc.cuny.edu/CUNY_GC/media/CUNY-Graduate-Center/PDF/ARIS/ARIS-PDF-version.pdf
(It's on page 13)

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"For truly, I say to you, till Heaven and Earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass The Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of Heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19)

“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of The Law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17)

I would like to see a quote or Two where Jesus says to change the rules, because I haven't found any. I can see him bitching a lot of people out on not following certain rules properly, though.

When I mentioned people couldn't think for themselves, I was referring to God's rigid rules such as 'circumcise your kids or else', or 'don't eat from this Tree or else' or 'don't eat the wrong food or else'.

I scanned your list of references to see if I'd read any or heard about any of their authors, and Saw that you have "Wells, George A. (1988). The Historical Evidence for Jesus". Dude, George A. Wells is an Atheist whose book examines the idea of Jesus as a mythological figure and presents evidence that the people who wrote about him wouldn't have had any contact with him. I Saw that Ian Wilson's book deals largely with the obviously fake Shroud of Turin, whose 'imprint' of Jesus' body is proportionately inaccurate, not to mention the Fact that the shroud was dated as being from the 1300s and that over 40 so-called Shrouds of Turin exist elsewhere. Michael Grant's book seems to be an argument that Jesus existed but had no connection to a deity. I'm not sure I want to spend time investigating your other sources if they're middle-of-the-road at best. You seem to not have bothered checking on the sources yourself, especially since one of your citations supports my side of the argument.

Wednesday 21 August 2013 - 04:08:30

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InfinityZero says : Every religion involves people Dying for people who don't exist. People used to wage huge wars over the Greek/Roman Gods

I'm not even talking about Jesus as a deity, it's about Jesus as a person who existed in Judea 2000 years ago.


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You say that because your GOD conquered others (involving millions upon millions of murders, as I mentioned before), but what about the thousands of years before Christianity's rise when many other polytheistic religions made up people's beliefs?

They were pre-enlightenment, by which I mean the enlightenment of Christianity. It is no coincedence that Christianity rose meteorically since the time of the Messiah.


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Christianity is a relatively recent religion--a religion which is beginning to dwindle.

Incorrect. Christianity is the second fastest growing religion in the world.
http://www.lausanneworldpulse.com/research.php/928/04-2008?pg=all


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In the US, the number of non-religious people has more than doubled from 14.3 Million in 1990 to 29.4 Million in 2001; their proportion has grown from just Eight percent of the total in 1990 to over fourteen percent in 2001.
http://www.gc.cuny.edu/CUNY_GC/media/CUNY-Graduate-Center/PDF/ARIS/ARIS-PDF-version.pdf
(It's on page 13)

That's still only 29.4 Million out of over 300 Million, the majority of which are Christian. 


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Also:
"For truly, I say to you, till Heaven and Earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass The Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of Heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:18-19)

The Law is The Law of GOD given to Moses, not The Law of the Pharisees. 


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“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of The Law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17)

see above


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I would like to see a quote or Two where Jesus says to change the rules, because I haven't found any. I can see him bitching a lot of people out on not following certain rules properly, though.

Have you heard of The Cleansing of the Temple? What about Matthew 23?


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When I mentioned people couldn't think for themselves, I was referring to God's rigid rules such as 'circumcise your kids or else', or 'don't eat from this Tree or else' or 'don't eat the wrong food or else'.

Laws of the Pharisees, not God. That's why Christians don't follow them.


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I scanned your list of references to see if I'd read any or heard about any of their authors, and Saw that you have "Wells, George A. (1988). The Historical Evidence for Jesus". Dude, George A. Wells is an Atheist whose book examines the idea of Jesus as a mythological figure and presents evidence that the people who wrote about him wouldn't have had any contact with him. I Saw that Ian Wilson's book deals largely with the obviously fake Shroud of Turin, whose 'imprint' of Jesus' body is proportionately inaccurate, not to mention the Fact that the shroud was dated as being from the 1300s and that over 40 so-called Shrouds of Turin exist elsewhere. Michael Grant's book seems to be an argument that Jesus existed but had no connection to a deity. I'm not sure I want to spend time investigating your other sources if they're middle-of-the-road at best. You seem to not have bothered checking on the sources yourself, especially since one of your citations supports my side of the argument.

I copied from Wikipedia, it sounds better than citing Wikipedia as a source. But there is still the information there.
The first-century Roman Tacitus, who is
considered one of the more accurate historians of the ancient world,
mentioned superstitious “Christians” (from Christus, which is
Latin for Christ), who suffered under Pontius Pilate during the reign of
Tiberius. Suetonius, chief secretary to Emperor Hadrian, wrote that
there was a man named Chrestus (or Christ) who lived during the first
century (Annals 15.44).


Flavius Josephus is the most famous Jewish historian. In his Antiquities
he refers to James, “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.”
There is a controversial verse (18:3) that says, “Now there was about
this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he
was one who wrought surprising feats....He was [the] Christ...he
appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had
foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him.”
One version reads, “At this time there was a wise man named Jesus. His
conduct was good and [he] was known to be virtuous. And many people from
among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate
condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who became his
disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had
appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was
alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the
prophets have recounted wonders.”


Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18).


Pliny the Younger, in Letters 10:96, recorded early Christian
worship practices including the fact that Christians worshiped Jesus as
God and were very ethical, and he includes a reference to the love feast
and Lord’s Supper.


The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion
on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing
sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy.


Lucian of Samosata was a second-century Greek writer who admits that
Jesus was worshiped by Christians, introduced new teachings, and was
crucified for them. He said that Jesus' teachings included the
brotherhood of believers, the importance of conversion, and the
importance of denying other gods. Christians lived according to Jesus’
laws, believed themselves to be immortal, and were characterized by
contempt for death, voluntary self-devotion, and renunciation of
material goods.


Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and
virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put
to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of His followers.


Then we have all the Gnostic writings (The Gospel of Truth, The Apocryphon of John, The Gospel of Thomas, The Treatise on Resurrection, etc.) that all mention Jesus.


In fact, we can almost reconstruct the gospel just from early
non-Christian sources: Jesus was called the Christ (Josephus), did
“magic,” led Israel into new teachings, and was hanged on Passover for
them (Babylonian Talmud) in Judea (Tacitus), but claimed to be
God and would return (Eliezar), which his followers believed,
worshipping Him as God (Pliny the Younger).


There is overwhelming evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ, both
in secular and biblical history. Perhaps the greatest evidence that
Jesus did exist is the fact that literally thousands of Christians in
the first century A.D., including the twelve apostles, were willing to
give their lives as martyrs for Jesus Christ. People will die for what
they believe to be true, but no one will die for what they know to be a
lie.
Also Lee Strobel wrote exgtensivley on the issue. 

Thursday 22 August 2013 - 11:30:15
Alright gayboy, that's enough out of you...

I understand, that there are many forums and topics on SoM which aren't related to Metal, but this conversation has just gotten out of Hand to the point of being ridiculously stupid.

Topic closed until further notice

Anyone with a problem with this can Private Message me.