Seeing as this is the avant-garde/experimental thread, I figured this would be a fine place to pose this question. Is innovation a necessary component in music? Does the artist really have to Push the boundaries of music is order to create a Masterpiece of art? A lot of the legendary or "classic" albums in metal have such status because of their innovation and pioneering. Bathory, Venom, Hellhammer, Mayhem, Burzum, Motorhead, Possessed, you name it- all innovative bands that brought something new into the genre.

On the other hand, pursuing innovation for the sake of innovation often results in a mess of shit. Just because something can be done, doesn't mean it should be done. Unexpect, Brain Drill, Mr. Bungle- all bands that are "weird for the sake of weird", and all of them suck. And it's not like you have to reinvent the wheel to create something great, either. Just giving a quick scan through the stack of CDs right next to me, I see a lot of great albums from relatively generic bands: Jungle Rot, Insomnium, Trench Hell, and so forth.

So what do you guys think? To be great, does art have to transcend preconceptions? Or can a Masterpiece be created using the elements we already have in music?

I already have an opinion on this but I'll wait for a bit of discussion before I throw my hat into the ring.

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If you are a false, don't entry, or you'll be burned and died!

Interesting topic you have here.

In the avant-garde genres, things are either truly innovative (for example, Mr. Bungle's Disco Volante or maudlin of the well's Bath), strange (Unexpect's In a Flesh Aquarium) or a blender of genres (Ram-Zet's Neutralized). These examples are just a few though. Though innovation can be Beyond amazing, it can be the downfall of a band. This experimentation could go overboard and fail. Many people SAW this with Unexpect, saying that they used too many genres that it basically collapsed. Obviously a Masterpiece can be created using the already existent materials, but when something new is introduced, it can become beautiful.

Let's take Devil Doll. To this day, no other band has sounded like them. Back in 1989, they released a dark classical/progressive rock metal type album that showed a huge amount of influences, but also a huge amount of innovative materials. Usage of the sprechsegang throughout the music, opera singing alongside it, full orchestra; it had all these new things.

There are many bands out there though that use a load of experimentation, but yet, they are absolutely horrible. Trying to implement another instrument that is not usually in metal can be dangerous.

To end my point, art is art regardless. Experimentation can be either the transcendental point of a band, or the downfall. A band could be just a rehash of an already processed sound, but it could be a Rebirth of it. It depends on how it sounds in the end.

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Last.fm: Mercenarion

I kinda agree with both of you. I don't really think that a band necessarily needs to be innovative. But, it is good if a band experiments, and creates something original, which can sometimes Spawn new genres, like the bands Enig listed.
And, yes, to much experimentation can ruin a bands sound, I just think that a band should use elements of the genre they play, and Push it further.

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Merc: so, disregarding any failures of experimentation, you're basically saying that if experimentation is done correctly the result can be a masterpiece. I suppose I can agree with that, but do you think it's the ONLY way to create a masterpiece?

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If you are a false, don't entry, or you'll be burned and died!

"A band could be just a rehash of an already processed sound, but it could be a Rebirth of it." By this I meant that a band that isn't experimental could still make a masterpiece.

Also, I stated that it can either be good, or a downfall for a band; I wasn't disregarding that point.

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Last.fm: Mercenarion

So do you dislike bands that put non-metal elements or instruments into a metal context?

Perhaps genre-defining bands DID Push experimentation too Far, it just happened to work out for them.

Oh, and I see what you're getting at now Merc. For the sake of clarification/curiosity, what are some bands you would label as "generic" that have created masterpieces?

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If you are a false, don't entry, or you'll be burned and died!

11 Dreams - Mercenary (Nothing really new, but put together very well)
The Obsidian Conspiracy - Nevermore (same elements as other albums, just a little more melodic)
Blinding the Masses - Scarab (basically a better version of Nile)
Crimson - Sentenced (Heavy Metal with gothic touches)
Towards the Frozen Stream - Vordven (beautiful atmospheric Black Metal, but not unique in any way)
Vast Oceans Lachrymose - While Heaven Wept (Amazing power/doom metal, but Nothing new added)

I obviously know others, but I can't remember those ones.

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Last.fm: Mercenarion

Actually, I was meaning the exact opposite. With "push it further" I also meant using elements/instruments which are unusual for a certain genre. Like, let's say, using Folk instruments in a Thrash Metal band.

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Say, would you happen to know of any folk/thrash bands? I think you could classify Melechesh as that.

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Last.fm: Mercenarion

Nope, I searched for some, but I couldn't find any. I have to check out Melechesh.

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